culling and selection

[iaechickens]

While it is some time away for me I have been thinking some of culling and traits I want to select for.  I'm assuming most breeders here look at type then color.  Does anyone pay attention to economic traits like egg laying, or growth rate etc. I'm sure some traits are more heritable than others.  One of the reasons I chose Orpingtons is I felt they could be both pretty and useful.

[Carm]

Good topic. I think a lot of people look for a heritage breed to be pretty and useful. I wanted the same thing. I for sure have the pretty, but am disappointed in the useful. When I first told my grandmother I got into Buff Orpingtons, she questioned it. She had them 50 years ago and they were fluffy and nice to look at, but didn't lay often enough and we're never as meaty as you thought. Fast forward 50 years and her grandson now has Buff Orpingtons that are fluffy and nice to look at, but don't lay as often as I would like and are not as meaty as you think. There is no way for a judge to know how many eggs a hen laid or how fast the cockerel got as big as he did, so they were not a high priority to the exhibition poultry breeder. If you look at pictures from Orpington shows in the early 1900's, breeders have kept the conformation of the birds fairly similar. But production and performance have not changed like the more commercial poultry. Imagine if orpingtons grew even half as fast as commercial broilers. We could make our final culls in a few months. I have orpingtons that are 7-8 months old and still changing. Same with laying. I could set twice as many eggs in half the time if my orpingtons laid consistently everyday. Think of the increased value in culls if I could more comfortably sell someone Orpington pullets for a backyard layer. Or sell male culls earlier for meat because they grew meatier sooner, having eaten feed for a shorter period of time.
So I am trying to use data like weights and laying ability. But it's not easy. My best show hen is a poor layer, maybe 3 eggs a week. I would love to have 50 that look just like her. But that just isn't enough eggs laid, so she will posibly just be left in the show pen and not in the breeding pen. Same with weighing birds. It didn't take long to figure out that I am not very accurate at eyeballing weight on orpingtons. I would have 2 cockerels that I was sure were the same weight, only to weigh them and have them be 2 pounds different. Same thing 2 weeks ago when I was washing for a show. 2 pullets I thought were the same size dry, were not even close wet. If orpingtons didn't look horrendous wet I would have taken a wet and dry picture to show what I am saying.
To answer your question, yes, I use production and performance when making breeding decisions. But they still have to be fluffy and nice to look at, like grandmother's orpingtons.

[iaechickens]

fortunately, I understood some of these facts before I chose Orps. Having always been production oriented with my other livestock, I'm not sure if I will have the patience, but we'll see. Tell me if I'm wrong here: Of course, this is not a breed specific problem, so if you want to show chickens, production will most likely always suffer.  Although, I still plan to try to select for some production traits.  Hopefully some of the senior members will share their thoughts.

[Carm]

Canada had good markets for dairy show cattle in North America and South America. So breeders bred show cattle. They were worried about size. The taller the better. Heifers especially. Cows you hoped had enough udder to show. The lines that made big show cattle usually didn't milk well. But it didn't matter, there was a good market for big show cattle. Breeding stock sales were higher than their milk cheque anyways. Then when BSE (mad cow) hit all boarders closed. There wasn't a market for big cows that didn't milk. So the show breeders adapted. No one wanted a show cow that didn't milk, their milk cheque was now bigger than their breeding stock sales. So they started breeding production into show cows. The average show cow is not as tall has a better udder and gives more milk than before. And it didn't really take long. Just being pretty wasn't paying the bills. We went through the same thing with our cows. Stopped using bulls we had been using and payed more attention to bull's milk #'s. I think the same is possible with my orpingtons. I have a picture of 2 cockerels I am showing on the Buff Orpington thread on here. They are both decent conformation birds. But the lighter coloured cockerel is out of a hen that laid more regularly than the darker one's mother. So if I only use the lighter one I may be breeding more production into his offspring. But they are similar, other than I prefer the colour of the darker one, so I really am not jeopardizing looks for production. The lighter coloured one is heavier too, so it's a win/win. The first step in a long journey of breeding more production into my orpingtons. I am sure it tops out somewhere. I am not expecting 365 eggs a year, but definitely more than I get now. I know the Orpington will never compete with the commercial hybrids, but there is definitely room for improvement. But at this point it is just theoretical. So yes, more experienced breeders can chime in with their experiences.

[d12chandler]

At our house, eggs have to come from Walmart or the grocery store. My wife says no to my eggs. I could eat
them but she says no. My buffs lay very good if I don't over feed. Give them all they want and I get maybe
one egg a week per female. Also if you keep a line or family for a long time they will lose some egg
production. Carm my grandmother had buffs for years, she used then to set and raise chicks, she butchered
the ones she didn't like. She met Leo Bowers at our county fair judging and after she visited with him she got eggs
from him. I just wish I had some of those old girls today, Mr. Bowers and Dr. Clevenger was good friends and
swapped males every fall. God didn't make a orpington on the lines of a cornish, different type meat birds.
Orps do make good chicken and dumplings, fried might be rough. I guess you have to ask, would I like to have
3 chicks per week out of a good show hen or 6 out of a everyday old chicken. If you are showing it is not hard
for me to chose. But I agree it would be better if they would lay better.

[iaechickens]

Carm, I listed a thread I found on BYC.  While there is a lot of blah on the thread and I haven't found useful information as far as actual selection, there is good opinion regarding and pertaining to this thread. 

www.backyardchickens.com/t/845018/breeding-for-production-eggs-and-or-meat/110#post_12677516

[Carm]

Thanks for the reply Don. That is interesting about more feed causing fewer eggs. I was always told to feed pretty hard and higher the protein the better during breeding season. Maybe I am over doing it?

[Carm]

Thanks for the link iaechickens. There was some interesting stuff in there. Of interest, it mentions TrueNorth's selection process. I hatched about 50 light sussex from there this year. The only thing it doesn't mention is that when she started selecting for production, she lost a lot of the standard colouring. I have over 20 cockerels from there and not one is a perfect show colour. A few of the pullets have ok colour. She warned me about this when I got them,but I thought I was getting enough that even in 1 in 10 was good coloured I would have a nice group to breed from. But it doesn't look too promising. So I would adapt a program similar to her's but still put more emphasis on show qualities in the first cull

[iaechickens]

Don brought up a good point, really getting down to what are your goals and what do you want to do.  If your looking to show, you need to select towards show, If you want production, you need to breed to production.  If you are fortunate enough to have a show winning hen who also lay six eggs a week, then good for you.  Carm, you mentioned show cattle.  So true.  Show cattle, weather dairy or beef breeds are so off course of commercial and profitable production it's sickening.  Of course showing cattle, you a chasing a trend not a SOP (although I'm guessing there are still trends in chickens). The most prolific winners can set the trend, when everyone catches up, the trend has already changed. Many a usefull herd as been wasted chasing the showring. Fortuneatly, the commercial cattleman doesn't give a flip whats' going on in the ring but is paying attention to production.

BTW, I am not bashing SOP showing or SOP chickens, I guess I got side tracked.

Back to my original question, Has anyone had success of selecting for show and laying or growth?