Post by crystalwhite on May 11, 2013 15:30:56 GMT -5
I thought i would share this pic of a awesome pair of true mottled orpingtons from Germany.What we are seeing here in the US is what the European orpington club calls Exchequer.http://www.orpington.nl/en/orpington-common/colours-large?album=4&gallery=124 The mottled orpington should only have white on the tips of the feathers not solid white feathers.For example the first pic is of a true mottled orpington.
Mottleds and Spangles I believe are 2 different looks entirely. I never seen any reputable breeder of a breed that is Mottled call the same bird both. It is one or the other. When I posted this quote on another site I got banned for trying to help shed some truth on this topic. lol I was told I was arguing. Here we can have an intelligent conversation with no name calling and no one getting banned for helping others understand the difference of the two. With that being said, Davy is 100% correct. The imports here should be called "Exchequers", like the variety of Leghorn. For those who dare to try and say different, please go to this thread on SHOWBIRDBID.COM the Cochin thread and tell those very knowledgeable breeders they are one in the same. you will be laughed at and probably no one will even bother to give you and consideration for you train of thought on them being the same variety. This is not like comparing the 2 terms of "Self Blue and Lavender". Spangles are Spangles and Mottleds are Mottleds. To quote Bo from the Cochins thread on SHOWBIRDBID.COM, someone who has neither a buck to make for saying the truth on a site where "knowledge is GOOD". Where the very best breeders in the USA can write and share ideas and thoughts and not be threatened to be banned for saying the truth. Let me just post what Bo wrote from that site about his description of what is a Mottled.
"Well, here we are, where ever that is? Large Mottled Cochin thread, that's it!!!! In thinking about the mottled large cochins of which Tom, Jamie, Clare, others and myself are working on let's look at what we are aiming for in this variety. 1. Type, Type, Type, Type, Type!!!!! Must have or you don't have birds, remember they are large cochins. 2. In establishing the standard for this variety the shape and general defects and disqualifications are already set for the breed what needs to be determined is the plumage of the male and female bird. 3. The mottling should be crisp white, V-shaped, not spangled, cresent or half moon shaped shaped. 4. Not every feather will be mottled, on average one feather in three will be mottled the rest solid black with a good green sheen. The different sections will have minor variations in number of feathers mottled but on average about one in three. I like the mottled plumage description in the ABA Standard but I do think that more than one solid white feather in any section of the plumage other than the foot feathering should be grounds for disqualification and birds exhibiting too much white counted as a serious defect. Feel free to chime in on what your ideas are for this variety. Well, here we are, where ever that is? Large Mottled Cochin thread, that's it!!!! In thinking about the mottled large cochins of which Tom, Jamie, Clare, others and myself are working on let's look at what we are aiming for in this variety. 1. Type, Type, Type, Type, Type!!!!! Must have or you don't have birds, remember they are large cochins. 2. In establishing the standard for this variety the shape and general defects and disqualifications are already set for the breed what needs to be determined is the plumage of the male and female bird. 3. The mottling should be crisp white, V-shaped, not spangled, cresent or half moon shaped shaped. 4. Not every feather will be mottled, on average one feather in three will be mottled the rest solid black with a good green sheen. The different sections will have minor variations in number of feathers mottled but on average about one in three. I like the mottled plumage description in the ABA Standard but I do think that more than one solid white feather in any section of the plumage other than the foot feathering should be grounds for disqualification and birds exhibiting too much white counted as a serious defect. Feel free to chime in on what your ideas are for this variety.
Just to let you know Jon how popular our UOC forum has become, just since my post here 2 hours ago, I got banned from that other site for what I wrote here. lol I suspect those moderators there must be getting a cut for allowing those on their site to continue to mislead. They do not want the truth to be known on what is what. They want the lies to continue. At least here those who truelly want to learn, can still learn here at the UOC Forum the truth about what to call these non standard bred Orps. IF you go to FEATHERSITE.COM and look at "exchequer Leghorn" you can see this bird. looks a lot like our friends who are selling what they call Mottleds for a ton of cash.
This is why I made my post here today. I feel sorry for the poor soul who paid a $1000 for a pair of "Crele" Orps, that in my mind are worth as much as these birds I made here who I am going to cull. Funny story about these non Crele Orps. I posted a pic a few weeks ago on a non Orp thread over there. I get an email a few weeks ago from someone wanting to know what I want for them. Ofcourse I did not bother to reply. I do not want to facilitate more misleading and more poor folks getting ripped off so bad. That is what drives folks outta the hobby and away from wanting Orps. My NON Crele Orps. Do you think I can get a $1000 for a pair? lololololol Again for all you folks, do your research and check with those who know what is what.
Last Edit: Jun 13, 2013 19:46:05 GMT -5 by lildinkem
I believe all of these types are developed by the same gene which is the hobby term we use called the mottling gene. But it will make a different appearance, depending on what loci it is put on. If the mottling gene is put on an E loci bird it is going to look very different from the mottling gene placed on an eb, or e+, eWh bird. have to take in consideration all the different types of modifying gene that can have an effect on how the mottling gene makes its appearance. For example the the hobby name millefleur is developed with the mottling gene. from what I've been told you want to develop this on an e+ bird, but then you see people try to develop millefluers on eWh birds. And if I guessing correctly the Jubilee is the mottling gene on an eb bird?? and the mottling on an E self black orpington is going to look very difference then the mottling gene on a black leghorn, black leghorns are recessive black. mottling gene acts different on recessive black leghorns, its like one guy said it working backwards, It like it is restricting black from its belly and head.
If I'm guessing correctly, but I could be wrong, you want to continuously breed your mottles into solid blacks and show your F2 birds. because the mottling gene can wash out a bird. The pictures of the birds below are exceptional.
I had this look, not a true a Mottled look, pop up in my Blacks a few years ago. I had crossed a Korfus Black cock onto one of these Russ Milkey Black hens and produced this Black hen. I took her back to a Black, and got the same Spangled look in one of her daughters. Now When they molted, one of them turned all White with Black flecks running thru out. I also bought a pair of Australorps who had the same Spangled look, and they too changed from being a mostly Black bird to a near all White with the same Black flecks. The Aussie birds are from a very well bred line that came outta the Midwest. I did no crossing with the Aussies. Same Spangled look. I think some here may remember me posting this pic of the mother hen who was the first I had who had this look. In this pic she looks Mottled, after the molt she looked Spangled. And she was mostly White with the Blacks flecking.
Last Edit: Jun 14, 2013 8:35:28 GMT -5 by lildinkem
Post by littlechicklet on Jun 15, 2013 7:33:54 GMT -5
Thanks again for all the information. I will admit there is a lot of it I don't understand but I am trying.
This maybe a stupid question but here goes: What is the difference in the Exchequer & Spangled? Is it the same with different names used in different countries or are they completely different? thanks.
I was approached by someone on another site offering to sell me some "spangled/mottled" for the discounted price of $700 a pair. And "spangled/mottled" is what they were labeling their birds, not one or the other. Needless to say I don't have any of their birds nor will I. I am not trying to be argumentative or flame anyone just stating my experience.
I am not sure about spangled as far as Orpingtons go, but I know Spangled in OEGB are Mottled BBR, so what they are meaning has to be different lol. It could also be a term that was coined in england just to sale birds.
When I first made my 2 Exchequers, I was told by Christina and a few others the term translates as a "checkerboard" pattern. Basically blotches of Black over White. Simulating an actual Checkerboard in look. Looking on GOOGLE at other breeds like Hamburgs, Spangles appear to be a White base bird with BLACK heart shape or "V" shape on the tips of the feathers. If you go by what Bo wrote, one in three feathers should have this look on the better bred birds. What they are calling "Imported" Mottleds, from where ever, who knows, may have the genetics to make a true Mottled looking birds, but they appear to me, to be more of an "Exchequer" look. Bo said he thinks if there is more then a few feathers that are a total White in color Mottled birds would be DQ'd. Ofcourse Bo is referring to other breeds who have already been accepted into the APA standard. This is the best I can say to help you make your decision. For $700, if you like the look it is irrelevant since none of these varieites are accepted into our APA standard for Orps. And most likely will never be in our lifetime, or at least my lifetime.
Last Edit: Jun 15, 2013 9:17:05 GMT -5 by lildinkem
Post by littlechicklet on Jun 15, 2013 11:16:28 GMT -5
I love the look but not enough to spend $700 for it. I already have 2 color varieties and could not possibly work with any more and expect to do any good by them. Plus if I had an extra $700 I would build another coop and run.
I have the buffs Don gave me & my blues and blacks (a trio of KorfusKluckers & one cockerel of unknown linage). I am hoping by introducing the unknown line to Christina's line (I have culls I purchased from someone) to add some height to mine. This maybe a bad mistake but I am going to try it.
Just want to add the KorfusKlucker culls I purchased are far better than the other somewhat known line I had purchased before. I am thinking one was culled because of eye color being too light & comb too big on one pullet, the other pullet has a nice comb & dark eye color but she is not colored/laced well & the cockerel's color & comb are also not great. So all things considered they are the correct type just minor flaws in my opinion.