Post by d12chandler on Dec 2, 2011 11:41:28 GMT -5
I visited with Jeff last night and we talked about lacing on blues. I'm only into or was into blue bantams, I could never get nice lacing and after I visited with Vern, he came up with the idea of putting Silver Laced Wyandotte into the blues. After I thought about it I got a chance to get a Silver Laced male bird. I only had 2 blue girls left. I crossed them and kept 4 pullets, there comb was a wreck. Looked like it came out single comb and had a wad on top. I got new blue males from Warren and Vern and crossed those, my blues have gotten alot better on lacing. Females for sure. Jeff's deal is on his standards, he said his males had nicer lacing than females. I guess I'm wondering what other blue folks do. I do know that Julie has some very nice lacing on her blues.
I had talked to a Cochin breeder about 10 years ago who claimed he bred silver laced into his blues and he claimed it did enhance the lacing. I'm tempted to give it a try. Plus blues could use some silver to help clean the blues up from the recessive sex-linked golds. So we hope the silver would be a positive addition also.
Post by d12chandler on Dec 30, 2011 22:16:55 GMT -5
Gayle, I would put my feelers out for a single comb wyandotte, In standards you see more single combs pop up. I was at Herb Holtz place once and he had 2 or 3 standard silver laced with a single comb. He said he got them every year.
Ml Melanotic Autosomal Dominant Black intensifier ml+ Autosomal recessive lack of melonotic black intensifiers
It has been pointed out that if you only have one copy of Pg with out the Ml you will only have a black tip on the feather. Ml is needed to complete the lacing.
You want to breed till you get Pg Ml/ Pg Ml (Co)
The first dose will not be enough to complete a good lacing. The second breeding should show some birds with better lacing. But take into considerations that birds with the recessive copy of pg+ and ml+ will also show up which will appear to have weak lacing. and usually by the third breeding some birds will show up recessive very weak poor lacing almost zero lacing. Recessive autosomal genes can ride alongside dominate genes for several breedings and eventually make their appearance. But at the same time you will also have birds which will have better lacing. Separate the laced birds out to use as your breeders. Focus on the Dominate(lacing), use the birds with the best lacing.
Julie stated in another thread to always use a rooster with good lacing, I have to agree with her 100% because it wouldn't take much to destroy good lacing.
I remember a post Doug made on our Yahoo Group site about lacing. He quoted Tom Kernan's method. I talked to Tom at our Crossroad show. Tom won BB in Sumatras with his Blue Sumatra. The lacing was amazing on his Blues. Tom said the method he uses is a 5 generation plan. The first 2 season you want to take the very best type to each other of the Blues, hoping for a Black male to take back to the very best hens/pullets the following season. He said that will reinforce the lacing to the point you will only have to go Blue to Blue for the last 2 seasons. Somewhere on my puter I saved that post, But from my conversation with Tom, that is what he did. And to see his Blues will speak for itself that he knows what he is doing.
Last Edit: Apr 30, 2012 16:40:44 GMT -5 by lildinkem
Breeding Blue Sumatras Tom Kernan This article is about how I obtained very good lacing on my sumatras. I had a number of people ask me, so here is what I did. This took me three years to get. My start with blue large fowl came from Basil Smith, from Pennsylania. He had the best blues I saw anywhere. At the Bloomsburg, PA auction in the 1990’s he had the best blue cock with the best color I’ve ever seen so I bought this bird with several blue hens. These birds didn’t have too much lacing so I tried a few different ways to achieve this. The way that worked best on the sumatras is listed below.
Remember to toe punch to keep the pen that the birds came from in order. It took me three years to get the best laced blues with little smut in the plumage with no brassy lacing. The first year, use a black cock on splash hens. This will give you 100% blue chicks.
The second year, use blues with the least amount of smut and no brassy color to them. This will produce chicks that are 25% splash, 25% black, and 50% blue. The blue chicks will have less smut in them compared to their parents.
The third year, use the black cocks and the lightest laced females with no brassy plumage. You should end up with excellent lacing from these matings. After this year, you can continue with blue on blue matings. And, you can always repeat what I did in year 3. When using splash birds to get 100% blue chicks, a number of them will have black smut in their plumage. I tend to like blues which have heavier lacing like a sebright; this really makes them pop in the show hall. Save birds that are slightly darker when they are young. The blue color tends to get lighter with age, so several of my best show birds are a few years old.
If you start with blue birds with good lacing you can skip year 1 of my program and after a few years of mating blue on blue, try doing what I did in year 3 to get the lacing darker if need be. The next breed I will be trying this program is with the Blue Ameraucana large fowl. If anybody has any questions or needs help with their breeding program, feel free to contact me.
the sumatra breeders do make a good point get rid of the smut and the brassy birds.
one breeder told me that smut, peppering, and ticking is because the dark enhancing genes are putting out a lot of signals,so it is an overflow of black genetics, And some of the smut and brassiness can be from the reds/golds that some blacks carry.
Over the years I have run across several breeders who talk about the black birds with black lacing. I said OK!!!!
These are the birds you want to use when breeding black back into your blues. These birds can be identified under the correct light. I have had breeders tell me one way to identify these birds is at night with a flashlight, the lacing will stand out.
Another breeder expressed he only uses the black birds with black lacing that have a green sheen to breed back to his blues.
They are making a good point. Using black bird which dont have a lacing pattern may set you back to square one.
For readers to fully appreciate the laced Blue Pekin they must firstly realize that the lacing produced on the feathers of the Pekin has arrived there because of a set of factors that have combined to produce the fine dark edged lacing around each feather. These are called genes and it is the genetic make-up of the parents of the bird that dictate whether the bird will be laced or not. In other words it is an inheritable feature carried from the parent stock and without the lacing gene, laced feathers will not miraculously appear.It is virtually impossible to breed a correctly laced bird from parents that do not visibly exhibit the lacing factor, unless one or both of the parents have had the lacing gene in their background. Meaning that one or both of their parents may have the lacing component and the offspring have not exhibited the trait. One would need to be fully aware of the parentage of the birds being used in matings to be able to predict any sort of accurate result. Birds that do not have a visible laced feather but are known to have had laced parentage will carry a diluted form oflacing. Breeding back to another bird with sound lacing will assist in producing lacing although it may take two generations of mating back to achieve the results required. From my experiments in crossing Blue Laced Orpingtons and Black Langshan Bantams I have found that the Blue Laced Orpington has an extremely strong inheritable set of laced genes that has now carried on for 6 breeding seasons to still produce a rich blue ground colour complemented by fine dark edging in the Blue Langshan offspring."
In a nutshell he has expressed that this is an inheritable trait. If your birds don't have the genes for lacing then there will be no lacing. You can breed black and splash together till you are blue in the face and if there is no gene in there to produce lacing, you will not have any lacing.
I was outside today looking over the blues, it appears that quite a few are showing lacing, so I have some nice birds to work with. So I guess now it is time to double the factor as some breeders have told me, or another expression I heard used is start dosing the required traits. The dominant traits are what I want, and I'll have to work at holding back the recessive none laced traits.
Now I noticed I have one blotchy blue bird out there. One breeder has told me about 8-10 years ago that blotchy blue occurs from breeding blues to blue continuously with out introducing a black breeding periodically. Although David Plant in his article states this can be caused fron breeding different shades of Blues together. Either way breeding Blotchy blue birds back to black is the recommended remedy. So if this blotchy blue female grows up to be nice and typy I will put her in a pen with a black rooster that has lacing. Or I quess another possible remedy is pick your shade of blue and keep even shade birds in the pen??
Post by bamachicken on May 4, 2012 20:38:53 GMT -5
Very good info Gayle. What you need to do is keep notes and be able to rep oort the outcome of the breedings to see if actually does the job to breed a poor laced be to a Black laced Black. I have one blue pullet hatched this year as I am not hatching till the fall but I will report what happens with my work as I do some crosses. The young blue pullet is nicely laced but is way to dark. I need to lighten the blue ground color I am going to breed to Splash that come from well laced birds and see if the produces anything good. I will report back on this. The blue pullet is out of a Cock with outstanding type but his ground color is to dark to suit. I bred him to a lighter pullet with good lacing but the dark color carried over to the pullet. I will let you know on the blue cockerels out of this hatch. I had two black cockerels hatch from this breeding also.
Julie I have some birds picked out for the lacing project. I want them to mature alittle before I present the pictures. They still are pretty young. And so far it appears that I have some laced black males. I have some older hens that might get a chance to get involved in the project, time will tell.
I have another line of Blues which came from extended Black on Silver columbian. Columbian (Co) dose not effect E Black but with the splashed gene applied the blues came out laced. If this is the case these birds have to be Pg+Ml+Co