Carm
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Carm on Feb 5, 2014 16:06:04 GMT -5
Canada had good markets for dairy show cattle in North America and South America. So breeders bred show cattle. They were worried about size. The taller the better. Heifers especially. Cows you hoped had enough udder to show. The lines that made big show cattle usually didn't milk well. But it didn't matter, there was a good market for big show cattle. Breeding stock sales were higher than their milk cheque anyways. Then when BSE (mad cow) hit all boarders closed. There wasn't a market for big cows that didn't milk. So the show breeders adapted. No one wanted a show cow that didn't milk, their milk cheque was now bigger than their breeding stock sales. So they started breeding production into show cows. The average show cow is not as tall has a better udder and gives more milk than before. And it didn't really take long. Just being pretty wasn't paying the bills. We went through the same thing with our cows. Stopped using bulls we had been using and payed more attention to bull's milk #'s. I think the same is possible with my orpingtons. I have a picture of 2 cockerels I am showing on the Buff Orpington thread on here. They are both decent conformation birds. But the lighter coloured cockerel is out of a hen that laid more regularly than the darker one's mother. So if I only use the lighter one I may be breeding more production into his offspring. But they are similar, other than I prefer the colour of the darker one, so I really am not jeopardizing looks for production. The lighter coloured one is heavier too, so it's a win/win. The first step in a long journey of breeding more production into my orpingtons. I am sure it tops out somewhere. I am not expecting 365 eggs a year, but definitely more than I get now. I know the Orpington will never compete with the commercial hybrids, but there is definitely room for improvement. But at this point it is just theoretical. So yes, more experienced breeders can chime in with their experiences.
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Carm
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Carm on Feb 5, 2014 12:06:36 GMT -5
Good topic. I think a lot of people look for a heritage breed to be pretty and useful. I wanted the same thing. I for sure have the pretty, but am disappointed in the useful. When I first told my grandmother I got into Buff Orpingtons, she questioned it. She had them 50 years ago and they were fluffy and nice to look at, but didn't lay often enough and we're never as meaty as you thought. Fast forward 50 years and her grandson now has Buff Orpingtons that are fluffy and nice to look at, but don't lay as often as I would like and are not as meaty as you think. There is no way for a judge to know how many eggs a hen laid or how fast the cockerel got as big as he did, so they were not a high priority to the exhibition poultry breeder. If you look at pictures from Orpington shows in the early 1900's, breeders have kept the conformation of the birds fairly similar. But production and performance have not changed like the more commercial poultry. Imagine if orpingtons grew even half as fast as commercial broilers. We could make our final culls in a few months. I have orpingtons that are 7-8 months old and still changing. Same with laying. I could set twice as many eggs in half the time if my orpingtons laid consistently everyday. Think of the increased value in culls if I could more comfortably sell someone Orpington pullets for a backyard layer. Or sell male culls earlier for meat because they grew meatier sooner, having eaten feed for a shorter period of time. So I am trying to use data like weights and laying ability. But it's not easy. My best show hen is a poor layer, maybe 3 eggs a week. I would love to have 50 that look just like her. But that just isn't enough eggs laid, so she will posibly just be left in the show pen and not in the breeding pen. Same with weighing birds. It didn't take long to figure out that I am not very accurate at eyeballing weight on orpingtons. I would have 2 cockerels that I was sure were the same weight, only to weigh them and have them be 2 pounds different. Same thing 2 weeks ago when I was washing for a show. 2 pullets I thought were the same size dry, were not even close wet. If orpingtons didn't look horrendous wet I would have taken a wet and dry picture to show what I am saying. To answer your question, yes, I use production and performance when making breeding decisions. But they still have to be fluffy and nice to look at, like grandmother's orpingtons.
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Carm
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Carm on Feb 3, 2014 17:20:18 GMT -5
Oops, it told me the first post didn't work. Sorry
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Carm
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Carm on Feb 3, 2014 17:19:10 GMT -5
Thanks David, those look like what I want to do. Very nice. Are those 2X2 or not quite? I was thinking 2X4 for cockerels and smaller for pullets/hens. Then I could leave them in for most of the show season.
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Carm
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Carm on Feb 3, 2014 17:18:43 GMT -5
Thanks David, those look like what I want to do. Very nice. Are those 2X2 or not quite? I was thinking 2X4 for cockerels and smaller for pullets/hens. Then I could leave them in for most of the show season.
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Carm
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Carm on Feb 3, 2014 9:13:49 GMT -5
How long does it take to grow trimmed/plucked vent feathers back? I want to be breeding by the end of February and show in the fall. Is there time for substantial regrowth? Or do I leave some as show birds and breed with them next season?
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Carm
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Carm on Feb 2, 2014 14:21:29 GMT -5
I think it is just a slow process. I check a few forums. I would prefer this one, even with one or two posts a day, over the sites that have a lot of posts a day, but not related to poultry or orpingtons. I think it will grow slowly. It's a good place to share experiences. There doesn't seem to be the egos on here that you see at other forums.
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Carm
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Carm on Feb 2, 2014 14:04:52 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies. I think I will build some slightly bigger conditioning pens. I want 3 sides wood I think. I had them in show cages before the last show for a while and thought it was a little bit rough on feathers. I did notice better growth and weight gain in the cages than group pens.
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Carm
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Carm on Feb 2, 2014 13:55:35 GMT -5
I had 2 trios. The 2 hens were full siblings in both trios. I the future I hope to do more pairs instead of trios so it's easier to identify parents. We have purebred sheep, beef, and dairy cattle so I was used to pedigrees for everything. I downloaded the ZooEasy program. It allows you to keep track of "chicken" pedigrees. I use toe punching and numbered zipties. I also have a photo of every bird used for breeding for reference in case a ziptie comes off. I also add weights to the ZooEasy program.
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Carm
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Carm on Feb 2, 2014 12:50:14 GMT -5
I was given the advice to just pick one breed and variety and try to perfect it. So I have LF Buff Orpingtons. I hatched from two trios last year. I switched males half way through. So I have 4 potential matings. I toe punch to keep them sorted. I think how many you keep to breed depends on your incubating method. I use a cabinet incubator and then a hovabator for hatching. This means I can set eggs once a week. I hatched about 75 chicks but the 4 hens only laid about 15 eggs a week. So it took a long time to get to 75 chicks. Plus I had a break between males when I switched. I like having lots of replacements to pick from. I also like only breeding from my top few birds. However, I didn't like having birds a few months apart in age. So, back to the question. Decide how many chicks you want to hatch and how fast you want them. What do you have for an incubator? If you only have a small incubator, you may need to collect from more hens. I am undecided what I will do this year. Either hatch from a few more hens or just hatch fewer chicks this year. I have a few of last year's pullets I would like to keep for breeders but also want to show them this year so may wait on them for early chicks for next year.
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Carm
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Carm on Jan 29, 2014 13:46:54 GMT -5
Here are two of my cockerels I am planning on showing this year. I like the colour of the darker one and the size of the lighter one. The darker one seems to have slowed down growing and the big lighter one is just hitting a growth spurt.
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Carm
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Carm on Jan 28, 2014 13:55:47 GMT -5
Hello, How long do you leave show birds in conditioning pens or training cages? There is a 7 week break before the next show. They are late spring birds from last year so are not fully grown yet. Thanks
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Carm
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Carm on Jan 26, 2014 9:26:35 GMT -5
Hello, I went to a show yesterday with a fairly decent buff cockerel. The judge really liked him, but noticed some white on the 2nd from end wing feather on both wings. He said to go home and gently remove those 2 feathers. So my questions are: how much is too much white? Is that cockerel done showing until they grow back? A few other wing feathers have white quils, near the bottom, is that as bad as white feathers? Thanks
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Carm
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Carm on Jan 11, 2014 19:52:55 GMT -5
Maybe from the original post, it was the constant light that they thought would cause the breeding problems? If it was a white heat bulb maybe? I have always wondered this with using light for heat. I am about to set up the lights on timers to trick them into thinking the days were longer. Constant light for heat might contradict this?
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Carm
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Leg Bands
Oct 26, 2013 8:09:25 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Carm on Oct 26, 2013 8:09:25 GMT -5
Thanks. I hadn't seen numbered zip ties before. I have had good luck with zip ties staying on. So I ordered some #'ed ones in 3 colours last night to try out. I was having a hard time deciding on sizes for metal or plastic bands. The old roosters have big legs compared to the hens. But even the roosters seem to vary. So the one size fits all should be another bonus of the zip ties.
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