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Post by Fred Kokke on May 5, 2014 19:06:14 GMT -5
Hello! My son wants me to get Blue Orpingtons for him. I have been reading that if you hatch eggs out of blue's half will be blue rest will be black, and splash. I want to get blacks. Will you be able to start a black line of birds out of what you get from the blue line, where you would be able to show them later on.
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Post by d12chandler on May 6, 2014 10:51:07 GMT -5
Fred, best way in my mind would be to get a splash female and put with your blacks, all her offspring will be blue. You can use the blacks out of the blue cross, Warren did that all the time and he had nice blacks.
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Post by Fred Kokke on May 6, 2014 11:52:07 GMT -5
Don I think I will do as you said on phone and go with the blacks, and look for a splash hen next year. Or hit a few shows and see if I can find him one for sale.
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Post by gayle on May 22, 2014 12:18:02 GMT -5
Hello! My son wants me to get Blue Orpingtons for him. I have been reading that if you hatch eggs out of blue's half will be blue rest will be black, and splash. I want to get blacks. Will you be able to start a black line of birds out of what you get from the blue line, where you would be able to show them later on. Yes you can get good blacks out of blues. Blacks whether they come out of blues or blacks have to be breed up to maintain melanizers in the blacks. The more melanizers the blacker the birds. always use the blackest birds in the breeding pen. Always use blacks that have a green sheen, in your blue and black breeding pens. This is info I obtained from other breeders and so far it works. |
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Post by Jon Alden on May 23, 2014 18:07:25 GMT -5
It is genetically hard to maintain a line that produces good colored black and blue birds. Black birds from blues are visibly different than blacks from blues, they often dont have the green sheen going all the way to the edge of the feather that they should, and if they do the blues wont have the proper lacing. I am not saying you cant show blacks from blues, just that they wont be the best they can be.
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Post by gayle on May 25, 2014 12:14:01 GMT -5
It is genetically hard to maintain a line that produces good colored black and blue birds. Black birds from blues are visibly different than blacks from blues, they often dont have the green sheen going all the way to the edge of the feather that they should, and if they do the blues wont have the proper lacing. I am not saying you cant show blacks from blues, just that they wont be the best they can be. When you are referring to the green sheen that doesn't go to the edge of the feathers, are you referring to the melonatic lacing band. There are black lines which carry the Pg melonatic lacing on their feathers and still have a rich green sheen. |
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Post by Jon Alden on May 25, 2014 21:18:30 GMT -5
Gayle, I have seen blacks that came from blues that when held in the light you could see a flat black lacing the green sheen, and I have been told by judges that I have clerked for that you have to watch out for that in breeds that have black and blue varieties because it is undesirable.
Also on a different, off topic note, I hope you can make it up to the Central Illinois show in Bloomington next month, it would be great to meet you!
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Post by gayle on May 26, 2014 0:00:16 GMT -5
Gayle, I have seen blacks that came from blues that when held in the light you could see a flat black lacing the green sheen, and I have been told by judges that I have clerked for that you have to watch out for that in breeds that have black and blue varieties because it is undesirable. Wow that's interesting, another controversy. According to breeders versed in genetics. That is the melonatic genetics, which causes black to go to the edge of the feather. That really has nothing to do with the Bl gene which causes black chickens to appear blue. It is a dominant eumelanin. That came up in another discussion. Black chickens which have Ml, this does not suggest that they are from blues. Granted Ml is needed to enhance lacing. But all chickens who carry Ml does not mean thy are related to a blue chicken. There are blue lines that lack strong doses of Ml. |
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Post by gayle on May 26, 2014 1:41:54 GMT -5
Ml is a black intensifier. If this judge is against Ml. Then most likely he is against id+ which is another black intensifier.
A person well verse in genetics jumped me along time ago on the melonatic genetics stressing that blacks carry this. Stressing that the black chicken is needed to make a blue chicken. So if you apply the Bl(splash gene) to a black which carries strengthen Ml you will have better blues. Black Intensifiers can be weak or strong in a black chicken. The Bl splash gene does not come with Ml. It is your black chickens that comes with Ml.
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Post by gayle on May 26, 2014 9:37:27 GMT -5
Oh well. another controversy what else is new. Judges and genetics and breeder butting heads.
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Post by gayle on May 26, 2014 10:07:42 GMT -5
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Post by gayle on May 26, 2014 11:21:38 GMT -5
Sorry if I sound like I am arguing. But I was jumped by people well verse in genetics about blues. I myself believed at one time what the judge is expressing about the black band, but I said it in front of the wrong people. Ml melanotic, is a powerful melanizer and is needed to complete the black in E and ER birds. plus with the help of other black intensifiers. the more powerful the strength the blacker the bird. And of course if a black is carrying pg and Co the band will be even blacker. Co does not work on blacks but can exist in a black bird. but when Bl dilutes the black, you can see the presence of Co and pg. Co and pg comes with the black bird. Bl(splash/blue) cannot do what Pg and Co do genetic wise. So you can't blame the Blues for the black bands, because it is the blacks that carry it. In other words if you don't have the right kind of Blacks genetically, your blues will be lacking.
Like another breeder stressed, if you don't produce good black green sheen birds from you blues than your blues are lacking. And most likely your blacks are lacking. It's your blacks that make the blues.
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Post by Fred Kokke on May 26, 2014 12:59:44 GMT -5
Sounds complicated to me. Does that mean a newby to breeding orpingtons, sould just buy blues. Instead of tring to make them.
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Post by Jon Alden on May 26, 2014 20:00:06 GMT -5
Thanks for stating those facts, I apparently have been ill informed regarding that lacing on the black birds.
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Post by gayle on May 27, 2014 9:43:18 GMT -5
Thanks for stating those facts, I apparently have been ill informed regarding that lacing on the black birds. Jon when I get around people who are versed in genetics, I'm finding I'm ill informed about alot of things. |
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