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Post by reniespeeps on Feb 4, 2013 9:16:50 GMT -5
It has been brought to my attention there is at least one person in the US that is representing their birds as True Black (English?) Orps and selling them as such.... UMM that is interesting... because I sure didn't know there were any here... Could be this person is basing this assumption upon the color of feathers and quills. (face value)
Now coming from breeding fawn and black pugs to each other... we do get varying degrees of black. Once in a while a true blue black coat will emerge... and I do mean ONCE in a while... without the help of lady clairol. But that one pug doesn't mean your line is blue black... just means you were lucky to get one.
In my opinion.. I certainly would not consider my Orp stock as true for black unless I had actually took those black feather/quilled birds and bred them for at least 4 generations with consistent results.
Am I just spittin in the wind or am I right about this??
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Post by korfuskluckers on Feb 4, 2013 11:08:12 GMT -5
I have noticed with some lines that blacks from blues are usually dull (green sheen) but once bred for generations you will get the sheen back. I have also seen blacks that are from blues that have better sheen than the "true blacks" It really is all about the genes the birds carry or the lack of. It seems their are many that are trying to "market" their birds to make alot of money. I always like the auctions that say "show winning birds" and when asked what shows they have won, they say I don't show.
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Post by reniespeeps on Feb 4, 2013 12:33:10 GMT -5
Oh so its the sheen that makes them dull or not?? I thought it was the under feathers and skirt color.
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Post by harrys on Feb 4, 2013 14:12:53 GMT -5
How about the down color on the day old chicks. Is there a visual difference. Sorry, I really don;t breed blue colored birds, do have two hens and don't keep the blue chicks. Now my lavenders have blue in some of them but I am not breeding for a true blue. Just curious since I raise Ameraucanas and Araucanas but generally only keep black chicks with the white under coloring. Had very few chicks from these showing red bleeding in adults. The all black chicks get culled at day old.
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Post by gayle on Feb 5, 2013 9:40:40 GMT -5
Most of the black orpingtons are E/E ( E locus alleles)but that is not enough. Then the bird needs a heavy application of melanisers, these are the genetics that will make the bird blacker. If you visually evaluate your birds you can tell which birds have the most melanisers, they will be your blackest birds. To maintain extreme black birds you always want to selctively breed your blackest bird together. If you have dull black bird or birds showing leakage than your bird are lacking melanisers. but Dr Ron O always stressed that you can make you bird blacker by select breeding. Each generation selectively breed the blackest birds and within 4-5 breeding you will see an improvement in the Black color. Some birds hatch with a higher dose of melanisers than others in the same hatch, this is nothing out of the ordinary.
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Post by gayle on Feb 5, 2013 9:51:40 GMT -5
Since blues are a diluted form of black, and its been explained by some breeders that to obtain good blue colors, the blues with the less melanisers will make you best shade of blue. So the blue lines may produce some blacks lacking melanisers. A black line can still be breed from them. Breed them to be blacker, by select breeding.
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Post by lildinkem on Feb 5, 2013 9:58:40 GMT -5
This hen is from the line which has Buff. She is at least 25% from my original Akers Buff hen. She may not be the best type, when the lite hits her right she has the nice green sheen.
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Post by gayle on Feb 5, 2013 10:44:45 GMT -5
Bill
That shows that you can make a black bird out of any bird if you get enough melanising genes breed into them. Your birds might be E/eb, loaded down with melanisers.
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Post by gayle on Feb 5, 2013 10:59:53 GMT -5
I don't know for sure what the definition of True Black would be???
From what I understand the original Black wyndotes are eb loaded down with melanisers, if you strip all the melanisers you would have a partridge looking bird.
A lot of the old English blacks are Birchen loaded down with melanisers, so you have a birchen colored bird buried in melanisers.
A lot of the orpingtons are E/E extended black, self black buried in melanizers. There are possibly some black orpingtons that are birchens covered in melanisers. And I also aware of some black orpingtons that have eb (partridge) in their ancestry.
The only way I would understand the definition of true black is that the birds carry enough melanisers to appear black. A true black line of orpingtons that are poorly breed can loose their quality fast and become dull, so that would destroy their quality of black.
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Post by lildinkem on Feb 5, 2013 11:08:47 GMT -5
Bill That shows that you can make a black bird out of any bird if you get enough melanising genes breed into them. Your birds might be E/eb, loaded down with melanisers. Gayle, I know I have really thrown in alot of junk into this line. From what I read, I can be expecting to have alot more disappointments then homeruns. That is why I hatched every single egg from Christina's hens last year. Also used the same male that is in my avatar with them. This is what Bob Blosi said on a thread I read today about crossing lines. I still can not get over a friend and judge who crossed two or three different lines of large fowl Reds four years ago and then he has told me he has so much junk and disappointments in his own new strain that he is getting rid of all his Reds I mean all of them and starting over with a strain that is pure from one of our old time breeders. Maybe he learned his lesson and wont cross onto his birds again
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Post by gayle on Feb 5, 2013 11:52:19 GMT -5
Yes every time you out cross or bring in new blood, you will end up with a truck load of genetics. But some times you have to outcross or bring in new blood to get a quality that a line maybe lacking. You can either make or break a bloodline through out crossing or bringing in new blood.
some breeders have improved their lines by out crossing and some have destroyed their lines.
By all the different types and quality of birds that are out there, you know that not everyone has been staying in their own back yard.
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Post by gayle on Feb 5, 2013 12:07:28 GMT -5
I used to believe that as long as my birds were E/E self black I had black birds, but I've had several breeders correct me. Expressing that melanising genes are what makes them black and if birds in my black line lack (low dose) these melanising genes they are not black, but just dark. Like one breeder said, you may think you have black birds but they are really just dark birds.
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Post by lildinkem on Feb 5, 2013 12:10:47 GMT -5
I used to believe that as long as my birds were E/E self black I had black birds, but I've had several breeders correct me. Expressing that melanising genes are what makes them black and if birds in my black line lack (low dose) these melanising genes they are not black, but just dark. Like one breeder said, you may think you have black birds but they are really just dark birds. I remember someone saying by using a quality line to outcross too, you are hoping to make a huge gain in some traits that a given line lacks. Instead of small gains by staying within a given line. And ofcourse a line can always use a good boost in vigor with an outcrossing.
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Post by reniespeeps on Feb 5, 2013 22:53:07 GMT -5
This is a picture of few of my favorite blacks
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aveca
Full Member
Posts: 137
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Post by aveca on Mar 7, 2013 8:03:31 GMT -5
Gayle, somewhere in here , we were talking about purpeling in feathers..The australians were discussing making the green rich sheen in australorp thread..I borrowed this from Geoff and Ross..if it is helpful to anyone when new feathers are coming in..for reference..thought it was interesting from the aussie breeders.
think I posted this earlier, but interested in your thoughts. Comes from an old book called "The International Poultry Book". "To secure more colour in the plumage of Black Orpingtons and other breeds requiring green sheen, the feeding of sulphur before the last feathering is recommended. Start with a saltspoonful a day and increase the dose to up to a teaspoonful, to be given in mash. Done in late summer to mid autumn(fall)".
There are a few little tricks to enhance the beetle green sheen as Ron is absolutely correct. The oil glands secrete and promote the sheen. I use corn oil and another oil that is used to enhance the coats of show horses mixed sparingly in their feed. I'll feed this to my selected show birds up to four weeks prior to a show and that enhances the sheen. You have to be very careful not to give them too much as it can sometimes send them into a forced moult. Good Australorps should have a natural beetle green sheen.
(I personally feed scrambled eggs which contain sulfer when recovering from molt)
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