Articles on Breeding Blues

[gayle]

This is a very interesting article.
He refers to splashes that are so heavily splashed they only have a few white patches on them.
He also mentions the dark blues which are sometimes mistaken as blacks.

sites.google.com/site/faverolles/newsletters-3

BREEDING BLACK AND BLUE TOGETHER
By “Brian”


(Editor’s note: This was not written with Faverolles in mind and I
have no idea who the author might be as it was with a whole lot of
other information on a CD sent to me a few years ago)
From our December 2006 Newsletter

Black chicks from blue x black, are black. This whole notion that blacks from blue breeding are “different” is a big old myth. They do have a different sheen to their feathers in some cases, because of the modifiers they have picked up from the blues, but they are just plain old black, E, extended black, black. There is no such thing as "black from blue breeding". That is only a black chicken, which had parents that were Bl/bl+ and he just didn't get any blue. None. The very dark blue that some people call black, is just one of the 50 % blue from Bl/bl+ parent.
"Blue", ie, Bl/bl+ birds can range from very pale smokey blue all the way to birds that are nearly solid black. Blue is a gene that, like nearly all genes, produces variable expressivity. You see varying levels of the gene in action, when heterozygote, just like you do in the in the homozygote or "splash" birds, which are Bl/Bl. These can range from nearly solid white to heavily splashed, to nearly blue and black pied, with some white patches.

This gene is very variable in expressivity. That means you see varying levels of it, and thus varying and different phenotypic responses or visual appearances, even when in two different birds that are identical genotypically. Modification may play some role, but some genes are just variable, modified or not, and you see a wide variety of phenotypes.
I don't understand how there is so much disinformation about blue. Some blues can also be very splotchy and fool you into thinking they are splash. It can in truth be very difficult to recognise the difference between a homozygote and a heterozygote in the overlap ranges of variable expression between the two types.

Also, when in interaction with other genes, you can get variations that will surprise you. Blue with Columbian (ie, E/E, Co/Co Bl/Bl) will often make the blue evener, as it evens out the base. Adding Pg and Ml makes the blue laced blue phenotype, and in this combination, it seems to be a touch more stable and operates in more defined manner. When in recombinant with other genes and e-alleles, its expression in the phenotype can change to a much greater level of variation.

While on the subject of "blue", I have an observation to make. I always read in regards to blue varieties that they are "hard to breed" because of the variations you get, that the desired phenotype is a heterozygote, and thus you produce these "unwanted" other forms. I think this is so much hoo-ha having worked with blue and not found it to be a "horrible nightmare of difficulty". This fear and superstition surrounding the blacks from blue is one of the biggest load of crap I have ever seen.
The blacks from blue Sumatra breeding have excellent sheen of green, and I have seen the same in several lines of Cochin. If you will breed a high green sheen black bird to your blues or splashes, you get usable blacks. So you are not "breeding blues and getting all these wasters", you are breeding blue and black, and your splashes are valuable breeders when your blacks from blue breeding are heavy in green sheen. Then you can produce all three in your breeding and all those birds have value. Any blue bird that is standard really should have its black and splash counterparts as standard also. It is ridiculous to have a blue variety where the other two are not also acknowledged, and when you have excellent blacks from a blue line and they are bred to heavy coloured splashes, especially if a little lacing shows on the feathers here and there you can produce excellent blues too.

I think the disclaimer of "blue is hard to breed..." should be changed to..."You are going to have to think a little more, be more creative and raise a few more birds, to achieve the same results as can be achieved through breeding a homozygote colour, like black or white." Recessive white can be carried under any other colour or pattern, and often is.

[gayle]

sites.google.com/site/faverolles/newsletters-3

BLUE
In his book "Bantam Breeding and Genetics" (published in 1977)
Fred P. Jeffrey has the following to say:
"Thirty one breeds have blue varieties but only the Blue Andalusian meets the requirements of the standard for blue plumage. Of these other blues, some show very little edging of the feathers which qualifies them as poor blues and yet the tendency to edging makes them poor self blues. Others show the required dark hackle plus rather distinct edging -- in other words they approach but do not reach the ideal as found in the Andalusian. In spite of these deficiencies blue varieties are increasing in popularity and some say we will see other breeds with true lacing of the feathers.
The best way to produce good blues for showing is to mate blue with blacks which yields 50% of each colour. This recommendation is made because in most breeds the back varieties are of very high quality in type. The American Bantam Association lesson on blue varieties (1970) states it this way: Any Blue Andalusian or Cochin differs from a black one through the possession of one single inherited factor, for which every blue bantam is heterozygous. This means that any blue bantam of the common variety, mated to any black fowl, will produce 50% blue and 50% black offspring. If we remember this, we can make good use of it.
Let us examine the two ways in which we can produce Blue Old English, Wyandottes, Leghorns, Cochins, Rosecombs, and other breeds. If we breed blue to blue we get 50% blues with many off coloured ones. If we mate blue with black we get 50% blue and 50% black. Which way is the best? One has only to look around the poultry shows to get a very clear answer. For all around quality blue bantams never equal blacks. Why are blue inferior to the blacks? Simply because they have been made by some kind of a cross which introduced unwanted impurities into the breed, and because eliminating these faults is a very difficult matter so longs as we breed those blue bantams amongst themselves.
My advice to any breeders of a blue variety who want to breed prize winners is to buy the best black male they can lay their hands on and use it with their blue hens. Improvement will be very considerable by the time the second back cross is made." Since these comments were made Blue Belgian Bantams have certainly progressed and would have to be considered amongst some of the best "blue" birds seen at poultry shows, both for colour and type.

[gayle]

This article was wrote in 1961
sites.google.com/site/faverolles/newsletters-3

HOW BLACK CHANGES INTO BLUE
by H. Easom Smith
(Reprinted from the 1st July, 1961 Australian weekly "Poultry")
From our June 2006 Newsletter
Blue in the plumage is not a true primary colour and it is not advisable to mate together birds of the required shade indefinitely. What is know as Blue is actually dilute Black and this fact gives the key to many subtle variations in the mating of breeding stock to produce what is required for show. If self Black and self White bantams are mated together within the breed, there will be offspring which follow their parents' pattern of plumage, besides those which are somewhat intermediate between them. The latter are the "Blues" and will also include Cuckoos. In the crudest form Cuckoo marking is not well defined and, at a distance, gives the same impression as Blue plumage.
Special Requirements
Breeding Blues becomes an art when a definite shade has been laid down as desirable for exhibition and when Cuckoo markings are required to be of particular merit or (carried to the extreme) as clear barring in Barred Plymouth Rocks. Again, it is found that man has set himself some pretty hard tasks in trying to breed:
(a) Blues which are clear in shade and free from markings, while being sound in under colour;
(b) Blues with well defined markings in the form of lacings of a darkened hue surrounding the feathers;
(c) Cuckoos with regular markings;
(d) Precisely barred plumage.
The Standard for each breed must be studied and a clear mental picture of what is needed for prize winning birds firmly fixed in the mind. What will make a Leghorn win is not use at all for an Orpington; a Marans bantam is not in the same category as a Barred Rock.
Follow One Law
But, strange as it may seem to some, all of these breeds have plumage which is dilute Black and can all be bred by following the same general laws. At this point I would again emphasise that, if a full breeding season were devoted to improving any one variety and every egg laid were hatched, it would be found that Mendel's Law operated in a convincing manner. Sometimes people tell me that I am "talking out of my hat" because their results have proved me wrong on some of these matters. On questioning my critics, I invariably find that they have hatched, say, 20 chickens in three broods and, by a fluke, have got nearly similar results apparent through all the youngsters.
If Mated Together
If the number had been multiplied considerably the trend would have been something on the following lines: The mating together of all Blues would give 25% "Blacks", consisting of birds with very dark or actually black plumage; 50% "Blues" of all shades, with some tending towards what is wanted; 25% "Whites", among which would be included "Splashes". A pen consisting of a "Black" mated to "Whites", being bred from "Blues", would give offspring all having plumage within the desired colour range. It is, obviously, outside the scope of those breeding bantams as a hobby to try out all their Blues to find out which are "fixed" and which have "unfixed" characteristics. But, if this could be done, it would be found that a true breeding strain of Blues could be established. The drawback, for the exhibitor, may be that true breeding could be got only within a certain strictly limited colour range and that none of the birds bred would be right for show.
As the main object of breeding so delicate a colour as the Blue is usually to get bantams to win prizes, the prime requirement is a male of show standard. He must have the sort of plumage which is most desirable and it should be absolutely level throughout. Care should be taken to see that his undercolour is carried well down and that his flight quills are sound, not running to white halfway down the main wing feathers. He should be free from rust (eg in the breast feathers) and sandiness and, especially, from any "dun" colour. If he has to be clear in feather see that there are no hard edges, especially to the darker feathers on his back and in his hackles. If he has to be laced throughout, make sure that he has what is wanted on the beard, carried well up under the throat and that each feather is "open" in the centre without a dark shaft.
His mates will be, if possible, a couple of hens of show calibre tending towards darker colouring, together with a Black or two which have been bred from Blues. These should give exhibition stock which should, in general, take after the sire, but gain enough colour from the distaff side to retain soundness.
When Rather Light
An alternative pen is a desirable male, good in all points except colour, which will be too light for exhibition. He must be as sound as possible, but will not have as much undercolour as is required. He will be put to really dark Blue and Blue bred Black hens. These must be free from any foreign colouring. Quite a number of specimens of the right shade will be produced and the best of them should be kept, but all the too-lights and too-darks from this pen should be rejected, unless they are exceptional in other desirable points. The same general principle applies to Cuckoos, where balance is made between ground colour and barring. Light marking will be offset by hens with heavy markings and, on occasion, a Black can be used. Barred Plymouth Rocks also throw their Black offspring and, as long as they come from well marked parents, the females can be used to strengthen colour and retain that deep black with clear, steely white which so enhances the picture.
In general Blues and their immediately related Cuckoos and Barreds soon fade away unless extra colour is added to the breeding pens in the ways suggested. It is unwise to introduce new White blood which has not been bred from Blues or to use Blue bred "Whites" in any other way than to match with Blue bred Blacks. Delicacy of colour can easily be destroyed by re-introducing Black bred Blacks and it is better to select a few of the mis-marked Blue bred young stock if it is felt that breeding pens should be balanced in this way. Once the correct shade has been established, it should be used on one side of the breeding pen, at least, every

It looks like the tale end of the article wasn't printed.

[bamachicken]

Gayle I have to agree with that first article by Brian. I have found all my blacks bred from blue to blue have a great green sheen and coloring. Maybe it is the genetics they carry.

[gayle]

Hi Julie
I agree with Brian also
If Blacks are coming out of Blues with a green sheen and all the genetics in place, that would be a valued Black.

Quoted from Brian

This whole notion that blacks from blue breeding are “different” is a big old myth

[gayle]

I also agree with Brian on the point of using Blacks with green sheen in the Blue to Black breedings. and he is not the first breeder who has said this.

Quote from Brian

If you will breed a high green sheen black bird to your blues or splashes, you get usable blacks. So you are not "breeding blues and getting all these wasters", you are breeding blue and black, and your splashes are valuable breeders when your blacks from blue breeding are heavy in green sheen. Then you can produce all three in your breeding and all those birds have value.

[gayle]

Here is another good point that Brian made.

Also, when in interaction with other genes, you can get variations that will surprise you.
Blue with Columbian (ie, E/E, Co/Co Bl/Bl) will often make the blue evener, as it evens out the base.
Adding Pg and Ml makes the blue laced blue phenotype, and in this combination, it seems to be a touch more stable and operates in more defined manner.
When in recombinant with other genes and e-alleles, its expression in the phenotype can change to a much greater level of variation

Columbian Co/Co genetics is very valuable in breeding up blues for exhibition. It appears to organize the color and lacing patterns so as to prevent the genetics and colors from being jumbled up.