The controversy of white birds

[gayle]

Let's talk white orpingtons.
What has some of the old time breeders told us?

What are the controversies of raising whites?

I had a judge explain to me one day that my whites should be raised for exhibition by raising them on a genetic bases instead of worrying about what they eat and whether they obtain to much sun. Granted numerous breeder claim that to much corn, grass, wheat(?), sun can have a dratic effect on the white feathers of a white bird. This judge told me that he has seen birds which stay white in the sun.
Ok I'm game so I'll take the challenge.

Another breeder explained that he set his breeding pen up by observing the quills of mature feathered birds. On White birds a good qualifing breeder will have white quills. you can test for this by holding your bird up in the sun and stretching out his wing and examining the quills. Now make sure the feathers are mature, because imature feathers will have yellow oil in them making the quill look yellow.

OK feeling on top of the world I ran home and tested every white bird on the farm for white quills (at that time I had silkies). and guess what not one of the bird had pearly white quills. OK but at the same time another breeder stressed. You can change that. Examine all your birds and use those which have the mildest of dingy looking off white quills.
OK here goes I hatched out from the select flock, and each year I examined and selected birds with the least dingy looking quills finally by the time the F4 group showed up I was getting white quills. And then I tested them by which bird would stay the whitest in the sun. Then the next thing I had to work on was to slow down the inbreeding Another breeder explained that I neede to keep 3-4 separate pens so I could rotate birds to slow down the breeding of birds to extinction.

[gayle]

OK
A teacher of genetics explained that in order to make a bird white and the easiest way to make a bird white is to make your bird black first.

Recessive white and dominant white can cover black alot easier than it can cover red.

The trouble with a lot of black bird is that many are carrying the id+ recessive sex-linked dark shank gene which makes their legs look blue/dark. The cure for this is to breed to Id Dominant sex-linked light shank gene into your birds and also the B Dominant sex-linked barring gene into your birds to clean up the leg color.

It was explained to me that the original black orpingtons were Id dominant sex-linked light shanks. The E extended black (self black) is what put the dark covering on the black birds legs. But breeders have now put id+ into their birds which is considered by some a cheat black, because it will help to enhance and make your birds blacker, so be it. It works!!!!!!
But a breeder will have to contend with this when breeding whites to black.

Recessive white birds on black the babychicks will hatch light gray to some almost look black but will feather out white.


I have seen recessive whites which hatch out yellow. Does any one have the genetics for this. It is either a powerful sex-linked barring gene or are these birds sitting on a different locus or have different modifiers added?? There are also birds out there which have autosomal barring.

[gayle]

Here is a quote from a breeder who breeds white cochins, as is noted it is stressed that the feathering in all sections are pure white from the tip of the feather to the skin, this is requiring that the quill is white. Of course this is refering to mature feathers, Feathers which are not mature will have yellow oil in the quills, so when a breeder makes a final judgement on their bird on white quills make sure the feather is mature. Try to avoid using breeders that have off white quills. Unless thats the only birds you have, then work towards breeding your birds whiter.



pekinsaustralia.webs.com/articles.htm

White Cochin(Pekin)
The feathering in all sections is pure white from tip of feather to skin.
Birds should be free from all foreign colours and from brassiness or a creamy colour surface.
Most strains of white can be bred from a single mating.
Select a male that has good colour and free from any brassy or creamy surface colour, good shape and heavily feathered.
His head points should be near perfect as possible. Mate four or five females that possess ideal type and good colour.
From such a mating excellent exhibition cockerels and pullets should result. Good stay white cochins are available and with these the colour problem is solved.
Where poor colour is in the strain this can be improved by the introduction of a black Cochin cock and mate to good type and coloured females – white Cochin. Second season mate the best cockerel back to the hens. Careful breeding will eliminate the black.
White Cochins must be kept clean and in shaded runs during the hot summer months and especially during and after the moult.
The white feathers like anything else will be affected by the hot sun and there is a change of colour that can not be washed out.
Any white bird will get soiled from one moult to the next hence for showing they should be washed twice for the show, the first wash about a month ahead.

[gayle]

Where poor colour is in the strain this can be improved by the introduction of a black Cochin cock and mate to good type and coloured females – white Cochin. Second season mate the best cockerel back to the hens. Careful breeding will eliminate the black.

Many breeders claim "to improve the whites", breed them to blacks. Best Black rooster on white hens.
Then take the best cockeral back to the parent hens.

Many breeders are now claiming you can improve the whites by breeding them to splash and Blues. Best splash or blue rooster on the white hens and breed the the best young cockeral back to the parent hens stock.

[gayle]

If you have trouble with blue legs in whites due to crossing them to blacks.

pertaining to white orps

blue legs are id+ dermal melanin causing blue shanks legs
This is a sex-linked recessive gene carried on the male chromosone

Id/Id Light shank/legged rooster
Id/id+ light shanked rooster usually with a silver hue on legs
id+/id+ Blue Shanked legged rooster

id+/_ Blue legged hen (a hen carries one male chromosone)
Id/_ light shanked legged hen

when your whites show up with blue legs. Bring in a rooster that has the light leggs he will be Id/Id light shank/legged rooster.
Breed him to your blue legged hen
the females will come out with light legs, but your males will all be carrying a gene for blue legs although they won't show it..

Now if you breed one of the young F1 roosters back to the young F1 females, half your females will come out with blue legs and the other half will have light legs on the average. Half your rooster will be Id/Id light legged and the other half of the roosters will be Id/id+ having light shanks carrying a blue shank gene, although they will appear light legged.

Always use the roosters with the light legs hopefully they will be pure Id/Id pure light shanks.

or and also you can breed B sex-linked barring gene into the birds which will inhibit tissue pigment, inhibiting blue leggs or will lighten the blue pigment.

[harrys]

BLUE LEGS:
I only had one white male so used him over my black and blue hen. It took about 3 years to clean the leg issue up that all the chicks hatched were white legged. I also chosen a certain chick down that I kept to keep the birds pure white.

Then I added some imported blood and expected there would be no problem except with one white hen that had blue eggs. Well it appears the two white males from the imported blood and maybe even the hens with white legs( but carrying certain genes to hide the blue legs) produced the blue legged chicks.

When the chicks hatched it was a helter skelter color hatch with soo many different down colors. They ranged from pure white, yellow, orangnish, grey, orangish grey, grey, and even one was a sooty black color. So with so many different genes in them what ones with the chick down color do you keep to make sure the grown birds do not exhibit yellowing? I toe punched the ones that were yellow since I believe they will be problems in the future. The orangish and orangish grey I would also question but did not mark them.

My percentage of hatch was about 75% with the improper leg color which is a defect and disqualification. Very disappointing after all the work I did to clean my original stock free of this tragedy. I would expect recessive gene problems from the imports but a simple problem like this you would think those breeders would correct before offering their offspings to others. Perhaps there is a madness over there that would keep the competition down to a minimum over the other side of the big pond by selling the ones they know would produce the defect.

[lildinkem]

Maybe this was the reason that some in Europe imported some of Cecil's Whites decades ago. To help clean out all their defects. Glad I know who my birds are from.

[gayle]

Harry

About 10 yrs ago I had some American Buffs which are suppose to be Id/Id light shank. and I crossed them with American eWh (wheatens) which were suppose to be Id/Id light shank. and all my buff hens hatched with blue legs. It happens.

[harrys]

Gayle,
You are correct. Didn't expect diluter genes. I already corrected the mess I made and culled all the ID+ chicks so next year the problem has less chance to resurface hopefully. Except I have to test mate all the young males to see if they are carriers. I still have a good number to select from unless a preditor reads this thread.

[bamachicken]

Harry your so funny

[lildinkem]

Harry, what ever your doing is good to me. I got a "free" White cock from Harry in spring of 2011. I bred him to some of these Feusting Buff Sports, and a Patterson single comb White Wyandotte. Then bred the daughters back to Harry's cock. I am impressed. As I said many times, Harry is one of my best mentors. With his guidance, I have made several nice Whites from this season's breedings.

Gayle, Joyce told me that your old Buff line's blood is in her line of Buffs along with a line from Hoosier hatchery.
Here is a good example of what to expect from a Shafer line White.
A good friend, and Doug's mentor, Jack told me it will take a few years to build up the bone thickness and width of heads in my Whites.
As Jack taught Doug, bred the widest chest, widest back and broadest heads.
So, far I am a very happy White Orp breeder.
Shafer quality White pullet.